quesarah: (Default)
Intercourse, the penguin ([personal profile] quesarah) wrote2003-11-04 01:56 pm
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Pessimists R Us

I take the train to work. From the train station I take a bus to my lab. The bus stop is roughly a half mile and gives me a pleasant walk each way. Yesterday evening it was misting rain and chilly, but not horribly so. I began my walk to the bus stop like any other day.

Two different drivers offered me a ride. One fellow in an SUV pulled a u-turn so he could make sure I was okay. "No one should have to walk in the rain," he said. I thanked both of them but declined. How nice of them to stop. Sometimes people surprise me. Happy thoughts.

After I arrived at the bus stop I watched the regulars walk up; a young black man, a scruffy long-haired white man, and the usual group of Mexican-American men and women from the nearby businesses. All walking up...

Did anyone stop to offer them a ride or is that still one of the "bonuses" of being an innocuous-looking white woman? How much progress have we really made? Is it ever going to get better? Is it better anywhere else? Is it even possible to combat racism or are we horribly inevitably fucked?

[identity profile] virginmartyr1.livejournal.com 2003-11-04 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)
How much progress have we really made? Is it ever going to get better? Is it better anywhere else? Is it even possible to combat racism or are we horribly inevitably fucked?

well there are no easy answers to those questions...so i'll give you my opinion on the matter. we have undoubtably made progress in the last 100 years...i imagine i'm not going to get any argument on that. have we made enough progress? not in the least. and while i believe it's entirely possible to combat racism, the real struggle is ending institutionalized racism. it's inherently important for individuals to be anti-racist (the idea and practice of being opposed to racism, recognizing racism within yourself and working to change and lessen the degrees to which racism plays a part of life...that's how i understand the term anyways. it's a much more complex idea than the idealistic un-racist one). but fighting racism on an individual level isn't going to elicit change in the long run...there have been some obvious legal and educational advances, but the truth is that our society continues to be completely intrenched in institutional racism (and sexism and homophobia and biais based on socio-economic status, etc). in fact, i would argue that these structures of inequality can not be adaquately destroyed and deconstructed in a capitalist society, which kind of gets back to possibly being inevitably fucked on this issue. on yet the other hand, i do think that things will continue to imporove throughout my life...institutions can and do change on the deepest level, as do people. i have hope (but not if republicans run this country. then we are just fucked).

that's my two cents.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-04 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
clearly we all need to recognize racism within ourselves and combat it. but what about those subtle things? is there any way to recognize that? is there any way to get at it on some level other than person by person?

in fact, i would argue that these structures of inequality can not be adaquately destroyed and deconstructed in a capitalist society

i look around the world and wonder if it can be deconstructed in any society. is it so deeply ingrained in our primate brains to separate into groups of "us" and "them" that we'll never overcome it? i wonder.

[identity profile] virginmartyr1.livejournal.com 2003-11-04 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)
clearly we all need to recognize racism within ourselves and combat it. but what about those subtle things? is there any way to recognize that? is there any way to get at it on some level other than person by person?

do you mean subtle things that are not exactly a person's own racism (or whatever "ism")? i guess that's where i start considering something to be institutionalized, to be part of an institution's structure. those are really, i think, the hardest to identify, the hardest to figure out where to start to change, and the hardest to actually change. it's all really tricky and very well hidden, as historically based and grounded things usually are.


i look around the world and wonder if it can be deconstructed in any society. is it so deeply ingrained in our primate brains to separate into groups of "us" and "them" that we'll never overcome it? i wonder.

i actually don't know if a society that already has established roots in discriminitory structures can ever really be deconstructed and overcome to the full degree. the concept of difference is not the problem. it's when you go from the idea of difference to the "us" vs. "them" scenerio that you run into problems. i don't think humans by nature are discriminatory, nor do i really think that it's inherant to place subtle differences in separate groups...large differences (like different species, etc) i think might be more natural. very young children are incredibly open minded...but from a very young age children are taught to find the "other," and i think in many ways through identifying the other and focusing so much emphasis on what is different, coupled with the historically and socially grounded systems of discrimination, people in most "developed" or "developing" countries keep re-creating the same systems over and over again. i think the concept of overcoming racism (in this case) is such a big idea that it's almost completely inconceivable truly. i would think it's a matter of steps upon steps upon steps and then the necessity for not taking any steps backward and continually bringing up next generations in the ways that counteract.

i think my "knock me old" cold medicine has kicked in because i don't even know what i'm trying to say anymore...hope that makes some sort of sense (at least maybe just a tiny bit). obviously this is all speculatory theories, etc etc. i'm just a sociologist who has lost all her fun big words.

[identity profile] nightxade.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with pretty much everything you have said, but I also want to throw another stone in the puddle - reverse racism. The people who cry racism at every chance they get. The people who are seeking "reparation" for the enslavement of their ancestors. The people who use racism as an excuse for their own failure. The people who segregate themselves and then demand to be treated equally...

I had a post on racism and how it affects me a while back and got some pretty interesting responses about other people's experiences.

Personally, I think the only way to combat racism in the "civilized" world is to take every child away from their parents and raise them in a big nursery run by androids representing every race and culture until they are about 10 years old.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 03:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Your post on racism was very cool with some wonderful responses.

Personally, I think the only way to combat racism in the "civilized" world is to take every child away from their parents and raise them in a big nursery run by androids representing every race and culture until they are about 10 years old.

Strangely enough, that's about the most logical reaction I've heard.

[identity profile] wafflelips.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it's part of human nature to catergorize things and determine how much someone is similar or different compared to yourself and those closest to you. From there, people make generalizations. Some are friendlier about it than others based on the exposure they've had to people that are different from them and what they are taught by their family/community.

For me, my assumptions of 'others' were most challenged when I lived in places other than my hometown (Cleveland) and when I dealt with coming out. Living in new places gave me exposure to soooo mnay different people/cultures and I learned a lot of my assumptions. I would be such a different person had I not left Cleveland.

[identity profile] nightxade.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 12:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I might argue that them stopping/not stopping wasn't just about racism. More like sexism. You are a girl. In the rain. Alone.

Perhaps it was more of a damsel in distress kind of phenomenon?

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 02:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe. Some of the other women were already at the other bus stop when I got there. If they came up in a pair or group, I doubt anyone would've stopped for them.

I'm having a Perry Farrel kind of day. Humans suck, but "we'll make great pets." It'll pass soon.

[identity profile] wafflelips.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it was more a sexist than a race thing, too. I think that even if it were an innocuous looking white man walking in the rain, I doubt anyone would have stopped to ask him if he wanted a ride.

And you were even wearing your cool leather jacket. He should've been intimidated! ;-)

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-05 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I think what was most annoying was having those people be nice to me, and then having it highlight all sorts of latent -isms that most of us still struggle with. It was disappointing to realize that I was on the receiving end of certain benefits because of the way other people perceive me.

Knowing, as we do, how quickly those perceptions can evaporate when they realize we're Godless Lesbians! *gasp* was partly what led to my deep feeling of cynicism and misanthropy. Usually I expect better things from people. Some days they just really let me down.

[identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com 2003-11-08 05:54 am (UTC)(link)
Ye gods!

You're one of those Godless Lesbians!

:)

Maintaining that fine tradition of 90% of the women simon knows being gay. :)

And personally I think it's a gender thing. If I see a woman hitching, I'll stop and pick her up every time, no matter what colour she is. Colour just isn't an issue.

Whereas I won't stop and pick up men. Which, I don't think it's a sexist thing. But it might be.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-08 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)

Maintaining that fine tradition of 90% of the women simon knows being gay. :)


Which maintains the tradition that 80% of the men I know have many lesbian friends. ;)

And I don't think it's necessary a sexist thing, either. But wouldn't it be lovely to live in a world where anyone walking along the road-- be it man, woman, something in between, and of any color imaginable-- would be offered a ride? Just because helping each other was the societal norm.

Do you think we'll ever get there?

[identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com 2003-11-09 05:09 am (UTC)(link)
I wonder if once guys discover how great lesbians are to have as friends, they somehow subconsciously seek out more.

And yes, it would be nice to live in that world. Where people help out. But, we have too much fear. Which is terribly terribly sad, because I'm fairly certain the psychopathic hitch-hiker is probably in the minority.

He said, tempting fate.

Do I think we'll ever get there? No. Fear is endemic to the human soul, and I don't see how we can ever change that.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-09 08:36 pm (UTC)(link)
And yes, it would be nice to live in that world. Where people help out. But, we have too much fear. Which is terribly terribly sad, because I'm fairly certain the psychopathic hitch-hiker is probably in the minority.

True. It doesn't help matters when, in this country, our government actively tries to brew more fear and distrust. This "homeland security" and "terror alert level" nonsense serve no purpose but to keep us all afraid.

Which could arguably be their true purpose. Have you seen the movie Bowling for Columbine by Michael Moore?

[identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com 2003-11-10 11:41 am (UTC)(link)
It must be really awful having to live in America now, I really feel for you guys. With your homeland security and assorted other fascist police state nonsense. I mean, things are pretty bad here with Tony Bastard Blair in charge, but, it's nothing by comparison.

And yes, I have seen Bowling for Columbine. And while I disagree with one or two of his points, I do agree about the fear thing.

As does Hunter apparently. And if Hunter thinks it, then, there must be something in it. :(

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-10 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
It does suck, frankly. I don't say this often because it can be strange to hear it coming from a liberal freako shit-stirrer, but I love my country. Some of our ideals and principles are pretty right on, even if we don't always live up to them. To see them crushed under the jackbooted heels of the current Executive branch of the federal government enrages me nearly to the point of helplessness.

I haven't felt this alienated since (guess when) the Reagan administration.

[identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com 2003-11-11 10:05 am (UTC)(link)
I used to love my country. But I don't anymore. I came to the realisation that the line between Patriotism and Nationalism was a very very fine one. And that there were really no acceptable faces to Nationalism.

These days I'm into people a lot more than I'm into countries. But, that's just me. I have odd ideas about things sometimes. :)

So, do you feel confident that Dubya is going to be thrown out on his ear at the next election?

Assuming of course that some spurious 'State of Emergency' isn't declared, and the next presidential elections actually happen.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-11 03:49 pm (UTC)(link)
For me, it's a bit of a reaction against the conservative types who claim anyone who isn't on their side automatically hates their country. As if patriotism is defined by supporting unconstitutional policies. Idiots.

People here aren't happy with Dubya right now, and there's a good chance he'll get the boot next year.This is provided the Democratic party doesn't totally fuck up before then. *crosses fingers*

[identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com 2003-11-20 10:01 am (UTC)(link)
Michael Moore was on tv recently saying that he thought public opinion in America was quite finely balanced in favour/against Dubya, 50/50.

[identity profile] biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com 2003-11-20 10:07 am (UTC)(link)
That's a pretty significant fall, given that his approval rating post 9/11 was in the 80% range. The view is, Bush is becoming less popular and more vulnerable.