Good things to remember

[quesarah]

The Founders were the ultimate representatives of the Enlightenment. They were not anti-religious, though few if any of them were orthodox or pious. Washington never took Communion and refused to enter the church, while his wife did so. Benjamin Franklin believed that all organized religion was suspect. James Madison thought that established religion did as much harm to religion as it did to free government, twisting the word of God to fit political expediency, thereby throwing religion into the political cauldron. And Thomas Jefferson, allied with his great collaborator Madison, conducted decades of sustained and intense political warfare against the existing and would-be clerisy. His words, engraved on the Jefferson Memorial, are a direct reference to established religion: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

This is what Madison wrote in 1785: "What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not."

What would John Adams say? This is what he wrote Jefferson in 1815: "The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

Benjamin Franklin? "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

And Jefferson, in "Notes on Virginia," written in 1782: "It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desireable? No more than of face and stature. Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter. Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

Comments

[kimberlychapman.livejournal.com]

If only that was taught in schools.

I once had a debate with a woman online in a PCOS support group who told me I ought to be Christian if I lived in the US. She insisted there was no separation of church and state in the constitution. I quoted the "shall prescribe no religion" thing at her. She answered, I kid you not, that that wasn't about God because God is not a religious concept, he is TRUTH.

I pointed out that that was very bigoted to assume that only the Christian god was "right". She said no it wasn't, it was just the way things were whether I liked it or not. She went on and on about how the country was founded by Christians for Christians and how anyone who didn't like it should leave.

I'm sure if I'd quoted the article you posted here to her, she wouldn't have believed it. :(

[madenglishbloke.livejournal.com]

She went on and on about how the country was founded by Christians for Christians and how anyone who didn't like it should leave.


and you didint point out that that was just one wave of settlement oput of many, it was actually founded by people who wanted to be free from outside influences?
and if she was right, how come "truth, justice, and the american way" basically involves making as much money as possible and screwing over your fellow man?
and i bet she believed in the mythical "right to bear arms" that is allegedly guaranteed in the constitution

[biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

For those assholes, the right to bear arms, the right to make a ton of money, and the right to impose their beliefs on everyone else aren't mutually exclusive. BECAUSE THEY ARE UNTHINKING MONKEYS.

[kimberlychapman.livejournal.com]

Oh no, they think about these things. They just think about them all the time to the exclusion of other things...like, say, truth and logic.

[biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that's right. Because Jesus is THE TRUTH. Everything else that you can see and touch and confirm, that's ALL LIES.

I just want to carry around a card that has the definition of "truth" side by side with the definition of "faith." Completely different concepts.

[kimberlychapman.livejournal.com]

I did try to argue with her that many of the founding dudes were vocally in support of severe separation of church and state, and that many of them were deists or barely-practising Christians. She FREAKED OUT. Said it wasn't true and that, as a foreigner, I couldn't possibly know. I pointed out that I was able to quote the constitution better than she, despite being a foreigner. She said my quote was wrong (it actually came cut-and-pasted from a Google search). That's about where I told her she was a bigot and I then left the chat room.

[biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

This is the sort of thing that makes me shake with rage; willfully ignoring what was written by the Founding Fathers and then having the fucking audacity to claim that those of us who'd actually like to run the country on those princinples are un-American. Their fucking oppressive theocratic ideals? Those are un-American. Idiots.

[kimberlychapman.livejournal.com]

This is why public education needs to be improved and have a lot more historical truth and a lot less propagandistic bullshit.

Don't get me started on what US kids are taught about the war of 1812. >:/

[biogeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

Don't get me started on what they're taught about science. >:|